Transcript of fifty-seventh special meeting of Executive Directors, held on Thursday, August 27, 1953 : South Africa - Second Transport and Second Electricity Supply Commission (ESCOM) Projects

' I I STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL 89485 11 INTERNATIONAL BANK FOR 1! 1 "' 11 RECONSTRUCTION AND DEVELOPMENT i! 11 - - ... ·1 I FIFTY-SEVENTH SPECIAL MEETING of EXECUTIVE DIRECTORS ' ' \1 --- 11 Board Room I International Bank Building Washington, D. c. I Thursday, August 27, 1953 l I The meeting was convened at 10:05 a.m., Mr. Eugene R. Black, President, presiding.  I i 2 STRICTL CONFIDENTIAL Agenda Item 1'  .. ,, ., !1 4 STRICT THE CHAIRMAN: The r1rst item or business is the Minutes of the 244th Regular Meeting, held on August 4th. Ir there is ' no objection, the mi nutes will stand adopted. We next come to the proposed loans to the Union of South Africa. You have my Report and Recommendations on the loans to South Africa, and I would like to call on first Mr. Lejeun • MR. LEJEUNE: Mr. Chairman, gentlemen, there are two  'I !I I s STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL I quite separate and distinct loans proposed here, but for the . \ I ! I i sal\e of convenience we have put them together. Both are to J( I borrowers in South Africa, one being the Government and the 11 fl other the Electricity Supply Commission. These are the same I borrowers to whom we lent in 1951, and the programs to which we loaned are also much the same. I In the case of ESCOM, I think that the present proposal t I! !' can be looked upon as another installment of finance for the i same program to which we contributed last time. In the case of the railways, it is really a second loan Iii for a new phase of a continuing development program. I ESCOM, as I expect you know, is an autonomous body. In this country it might be called a government corporation; I, elsewhere possibly a statutory one. In any event, it prides II itself on its separation from government control. It has been! i I in operation for about thirty years and has accomplished its !, I task success.fully. Since the last war it has been faced with a very heavy u I increase in demand for electric power, something in the 11 neighborhood of 10 percent per year, and in order to meet that 11 it has had to carry out first of all a plan and now to carry I out an extensive increase in its capacity. Normally, to finance such development it goes to the local market in South Africa, and over its life it has, I j think, gone some twenty times to that source. It has borrowed 11 ·I  iii 6 ., STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL I once previously from us and once previously from the Export- ! Import Bank. This will make its third external borrowing i operation. ·1 II Inasmuch as the foreign exchange which we will provide under this loan will only take care of its needs over the. I next year or so, possibly two years, and since the program I will not be complete until 1958, it will have to look for its I foreign exchange, as it always has before, to the reserve ~ bank in South Africa; and in order to insure that it will not ~ only be able to borrow South African currency locally but ~ I'~ also convert these proceeds into foreign exchange, the South I I African Government in its guarantee agreement has specifically! undertaken to permit that to happen. The railways are different in their organization in that they are a government department and therefore have no autonomy. They also have been faced with very heavy increases in traffic over the last ten years. Some sign of the I '1 1 intensity of this traffic can be seen when you note that there 1 J I are something like fifty to sixty trains per day over a single I track line in many parts of the Union. That is pretty heavy 1 and results in many cases in their having to now look to \ double tracking or electrification or some other means of increasing the capacity of the line. ~ !I The railways normally obtain their capital from the I I government loan account and get annual appropriations from it.  ' l 7 r I STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL ways will be allowed to draw on that loan account and will pay contribute foreign exchange required for their conti,nuing program, also of the next eighteen months or two years, but as a project we have agreed with the South African Government 1! to take the next three years of their development program. II Therefore, the project will consist of those things which are in process, which are under construction during that j I I, three-year period, and everything started in that three-year period will be carried to usef'ul completion, whether in that I three years or later. We say 11 usef'ul completion" because, ' I, ' of course, there are projects in phases. Take, for instance, the marshalling yard. It may be planned for thirty sidings, but over the next five years they may only need a third of those and ~1ve years later another third and finally up to ten ' ' ' United Kingdom. This question of the currency required to pay for these  ii II 8 STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL II 11 imports brings to the forefront South Africat s particular I '. position regarding currencies. South Africa is a member of I ' 11 I the sterling area and trades freely within it. However, they are not contributors and do not even share in the dollar pool which is kept for the other members of the Commonwealth. They II do make a contribution to it under a special arrangement with the United Kingdom, but for all practical purposes, certainly as far as the Bank is concerned, we must look to the South Africants own foreign currency resources for any service on the loan. The Bank normally follows the practice of lending dollars where possible to those countries who can afford a dollar debt. The question therefore arises as to whether South Africa is one of those countries which can afford a dollar debt as readily as any other in any other currency. The facts are that South Africa consistently has a dollar I surplus on its current account and also consisten' <:&-a I fairly heavy sterling deficit. Of course, the main reason I for this is that gold is the main export from South Africa I abroad. Therefore, a new debt incurred in dollars is no more I I burdensome than a debt in any other currency. Because of this, the Bank proposes to lend dollars under this loan. In 1 Ii other words, to the extent that purchases will be made in I countries other than the United States, the Bank will I! purchase those currencies with dollars, disburse the purchased I 11 I'  'I " l I! I 9 ! CONFIDENTIAL STRICTLY currencies, and give South Africa a debt in dollars. This is exactly as we did the last time,and as a matter of fact it is what the South Africans themselves prefer. As to creditworthiness, South Africa is a rapidly I developing country. It has a very fortunate position in that I I it is a heavy producer of gold. It is now adding to its I capacity in a number of ways. The secondary industry has I increased a great deal since the war and has allowed them to ! forego a number of imports of a kind which they can now produce in their own country. I I The development in South Africa has for a long time i I depended upon imports of capital from abroad, and of course !1 in the case of mining and industries of that nature there ! i have always been a large number of people prepared to allow their money to be used for that. Today, however, South I I Africa thinks -- and we agree -- that they are getting to the position where internal savings will play an even more important part than they have in the past, and possibly before !11 long such developments as the railways, ESCOM, and other Ii public services may not have to look abroad at all for capital. i Therefore, I think we can say that as South Africa becomes less reliant on imports or capital and continues to export at the same rate as she is now, and maybe more so, her I position financially will improve, and certainly at present !, we regard her as financially creditworthy for the kind or !1 I II  ' .. 10 r STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL I lending that we are engaging in. ;f II II There is a real need for the development which we propose 1 to finance. It is true throughout Africa, of course, that ther I' is rapid development, but it is particularly true in South Ii Africa. I think that it would be hard to find anywhere else in the world where there were such prospects of rapid increase j in industry, mining, and other basic cogs in the economy. I There are shortages in every direction, power and rail- I I ways being the two most acute. In many cases they have to I j curtail the amount of power available to users, and this has i : had a stultifying effect upon some of the proposed developments I in the private field. The same is true of railways. They hav 1 I had great difficulty in meeting the amount of tra:f:fic offered, I Ii and it is only when they come to the end of their present lj development program that they think they will even catch up with the demand, quite apart from having any reserve. This, I think, brings the proposed operations right into line with the Articles o:f Agreement and the purposes expressed .j I there. There is a need, they are creditworthy, and I think il that it will be to the advantage o:f everyone in South Africa I that this development be carried out. It is only i:f such development does go forward that the standard o:f living o:f all those there can be raised from its so,mewhat low position of the present. MR. ROOKER: Mr. President, while he is here -- I don•t  II I CONFIDENTIAL STRICTLY 11 know too much about this and I hesitate to raise it, but from reading the report and without knowing the actual situation it has been called to rrt:f attention by some people in nry government, if we look at page 10 on the construction schedule of the power it would indicate that there have been some rather serious delays in the construction; and also if we look at the railroad program there has been considerable delay apparently in receiving locomotives. I am sure both South Africa and the u. K. are working on the problem. I wonder if there is a possibility that the equipment will be forthcoming quickly from now on and that the program will catch up. We would like to see the things done as close to the schedule as they can be. THE CHATRMAN: Would this be something General Mehaffey II could answer? I Yes. I MR • I.IEJEtJ NE : THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. General Mehaffey, , could you pick up this question? GENERAL M'.EHAFFEY: Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, the matter of the delivery of materials and equipment for both the power project and the railway project has been one of great concern to the authorities in South Africa. The best information that we could get with respect to the power program is that most of the difficulties which have led to delayed deliveries in the past have been pretty well overcome and they expect no .further ' I I I  " 11 11 12 STRICTLY I I CONFIDENTIAL l great delays in completing the program in accordance with the I schedule which calls for completion by 1958· As far as the I I " I railways are concerned, deliveries are veJ!1 much better than I they have been in the past, but there have been and still are veJ!1 large delays in the deliveJ!1 of some or the locomotives, particularly. The South African e.uthori ties are vecy much in hopes that that will be overcome, but they are not too hopeful about it. As a matter of fact, they have threatened to cancel certain locomotive contracts because of the long-continued delays. I am not sure that they will do that, I but it indicates, of course, their dissatisfaction with the 11 existing conditions. 11 MR. HOOKER: Thank you. I' I GENERAL MEHAFFEY: Mr. Lejeune has outlined fairly I completely the two projects for which loans are proposed, ! I . I I and I think there is nothing that I can do except to amplify I those I perhaps very briefly -- amplify what he said very brie:fly. I I I Taking first the ESOOM project, which is a continuation I I and enlargement or the project for which the Bank loan was l I made in January 1951, since the war the demand for electric I power in South Africa has increased with unusual rapidity, largely due to the development of mining activities generally in the Union, and particularly the development of the new Orange Free Stated~old fields and also because of the development of in us try.  I! Ii STRICTLY 13 !' CONFIDENTIAL 1 ESCOM has been quite unable to keep up with the demand and, I as Mr. Lejeune said, has found it necessary to make power cuts particularly in the Johannesburg and surrounding area, despite I the intensive use of equipment, what one might call the over-use of equipment, because there have been no reserves, an there perhaps has been some failure of proper maintenance because of the necessity for using equipment too continuously. For that reason they have found it necessary to enlarge the earlier program which, when the previous Bank loan was made, I contemplated the addition of some 900,000 kilowatts of I generating capacity to the then existing plant. Developments since that time have made it necessary to increase the additio s to be made to the generating plant from 900,000 to about 1,400,000 kilowatts. Approximately 1,200,000 of that is to be in new generating plants and 200,000 in extensions to existing plants. i 1 The total cost from the beginning of this year to 1958, the scheduled date of completion of the program, is approxi- II 1j mately 74 million pounds, or a little over $200,000,000. Whent that program is completed ESCOM•s generating capacity will I have been increased approximately 80 percent, and its total r ' generating capacity in 1958 Will be roughly 3,000,000 kilowatt , which for comparison is about the same as the total generating capacity of TVA in this country in 1950 or the total generatin capacity of the Consolidated Edison Company which supplies  'I 11 ~ STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL " New York City. That is a very large capacity, but the need for it has been estimated on what appears to have been a fairly conservative basis, and I am quite satisfied that the program is a very reasonable one. As a matter of fact, ESCOM itself is a little concerned that there will be still some I shortage or power in 1958 and that the program is not quite big enough, if anything. I ESCOM is very well managed and has been very well 1· managed during the thirty years or its existence. It is "t ..., l\t'h ·:'.-·/ required by law to operate a~(a net profit or a loss -- and that is authority or its own motion -- to increase rates when necessary to keep abreast of the costs, all costs, including debt serVice. The Bank loan, if made, will be used to assist in financing the overseas cost of the program, which is estimated at roughly about $80,000,000 for the entire program and around $50,000,000 during the next two years. I have no hesitation whatever in saying that the ESCOM project is a good one and that it is entirely suitable as a I basis for the proposed loan. I II Taking now the railways project, as Mr. Lejeune said ther lj has been a continuing rather large increase in demand for 'I railway services during the war, amounting for a number of I years to roughly 5 to 6 percent a year, compounded. Capacitie I lag behind the demand I largely because of the time required to I  15 STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL obtain equipment and the time required to carry out the delays in practically all parts of the Union. The large I program then has been in effect a continuing program, as I Mr. Lejeune said, for improving the capacity or the railways. J I Verry properly, that program has contemplated, first, the I purchase of additional locomotives and rolling stock; second, the enlargement of the shop facilities for the proper l maintenance of the enlarged equipment; and, third, the I l improvement of the permanent ways and other fscili ties in I order to increase their traffic capacity. The program is a continuing one, and the project which is proposed for Bank financing is athree-year slice of that I I· continuing program; that is, three years from the 1st of April, 1953, beginning their financial year, to the 31st of I ! ! March, 1956; plus, as Mr. Lejeune said, such additional work I thereafter as may be necessary to bring to a usef'ul condition 11 work started during the three years but not in a useful ' ' condition as the end of the three years. The estimated cost for the three years is about I 93,000,000 pounds, exclusive of nearly 30,000,000 pounds on 11 1 renewals. Of the 93,000,000 pounds, something over 8,000,000 i will be furnished by the railways themselves from their l revenues, contributed to betterment funds. About two-fifths I 11 I  I. 1: l 16 STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL of the total expenditure will be for locomotives and a third j for improvements to the capacity of the lines and about a 1 I tenth for shops and shop equipment, with the remainder for staff quarters and miscellaneous improvements. The Bank loan is intended to finance part of the overseas purchases, which are estimated at something over $100,000,000 during the three years. The greater part of these purchases will be made in the United Kingdom, but a very substantial amount of orders have been made for locomotives and freight cars in Germany and Belgium. The railways administration last year had a deficit of around something less than 5,000,000 pounds. It is the fixed policy of the government that the railways shall be entirely self supporting, and an increase in freight rates across the board of about 15 percent went into effect on the 1st of August this year, which is expected to produce additional revenues of about l,000,000 pounds a month. In addition to that, a new and sounder tariff stl"'Ucture is expected to be put I into effect sometime next year, which should produce another 1 5,000,000 pounds a year. So I think there is no question II about the ability of the railways to carry all of their I expenses, including interest on the debt. Management of the railways I think is ve!7 competent. The project is technically sound and badly needed, and I am satisfied that it will form an entirely suitable basis for I  'i I STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL 17 · the proposed loan. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir. Any questions? I notice you said "her interest on the debt." I suppose you meant interest and amortization on the debt. GENERAL MEHAFFEY: No, sir, not the railways. The railways get their loan money from the government. They do not depreciate and amortize their debts. There is no provisio in the general laws governing the railways for the amortiza- tion of their debt. However, they do depreciate all of their equipment on the basis of the useful life and use that depreciation money for their renewals. That is quite different from the ESCOM, which does not have any depreciation account but which builds up a redemption fund for the definite redemption of its loans. THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Any questions? Any discussion this loan? If there are no questions and no discussion -- MR. SHENOY: Mr. Chairman, I have one general question. I have here before me a list of railway and electricity I loans for the past. I find the duration of the loans is from 15 to 25 years. I think this loan is for 10 years. Any comments on that, Mr. Chairman? THE CHAIRMAN: The reason that this loan was for ten years was that we felt that the loan could be repaid by South Africa without any diffficulty or hardship within the ten-year period. At the present time the South African  ii I' i 18 STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL 11 I Government is making very substantial sales of uranium, which I, II 11 is bringing in vei:ry substantial revenues, and while they were • i • enjoying that revenue that money should be used to pay off II this debt promptly. The other reason that it was made for a ten-year period I was that if the political policy of the government were to cause trouble we felt that if the trouble were caused it might become effective maybe after ten years. We thought thaft K.. from a matter of safety for the Bank if the policies that the government was pursuing did cause difficulty that it would not take effect within that period of time, and that was one of the reasons why we wanted a loan within this ten-year period. Any other questions? If there are no other questions and no :f'urther discussion, can I have a motion to adopt the resolution. I I (Upon motion duly made and seconded, the resolution was put to a vote and was carried.) MR. SHENOY: I abstain, Mr. Chairman, and I should like to state in brief the reasons after you have considered this motion. THE CHAIRMAN: If there is no opposition to the acceptance of this resolution, with the abstention by Mr. Shenoy, I declare the motion carried. I would also like to state that I have been informed by  '1 ji 19 I CONFIDENTIAL STRICTLY jl the Executive Director from Pakistan that he wishes to be recorded as abstaining on this motion. Mr. Yumoto, do you II wish to abstain? MR. YUMOTO: No, I support this proposal. According to Article V, the benefit from the loan will be enjoyed fairly by all the people in the Union, regardless of race or creed. However, I wish to state in the record that one of the members namely, the Government of Burma, would have abstained if they could from voting, for the reason that they believe the 1 interracial tension might seriously affect the economic stability of the country. THE CHAIRMAN: But you do not wish to be recorded as abstaining? You are voting for this? MR. YUMOTO: Yes, I will support this motion. THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Shoaib, you do not want to make any statement? MR. SHOAIB: THE CHAIRMAN: No. Mr. Shenoy, you do want to make a state- I rnent? MR. SHENOY: Yes. I wish to indicate briefly the reasons for abstaining on the two loans to South Africa. We agree with the observation you have made in your report to the Board that South Africa•s prosperity is largely linked up with the continued maintenance of mutually cooperative relation- ships between European and Asian and African inhabitants. The  r I 20 l STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL last of them comprise the overwhelming population of the country. We agree, too, that one of the risks inherent in any lending in South Africa is that interracial tensions might emerge which would seriously disrupt this relationship and impair the economic stability of the country. We agree with ",,,.,., your feelings of uncertainty regarding the proxim~te future J\.. and agree that much depends on the way the problem is handled, but the objectionable and intolerant racial policies relentlessly pursued by South Africa and the Union Government in defiance of world opinion are very disturbing factors in an admittedly dangerous situation. They are not hopeful evidence of the government•s concern for interracial brother- hood and harmony. These policies might plunge the country into political and economic chaos, and in our considered judgment South Africa should be therefore regarded as a -- 411 MR. WRY: May I interrupt for a point of order? If Mr. Shenoy has more to say about South Africa, I think that I I they should be given a chance to be represented here. I don•t II know that he will continue, but I would ask him to bear that in mind if he wishes to say things about the South African Government. They should have an opportunity to be repre- sented if this is for the record, and I presume it is. MR. SHENOY: I have very little left, Mr. Chairman. It should be considered definitely a bad risk today for the  li 21 I CONFIDENTIAL STRICTLY purposes of a loan from an international body. MR. BURY: I should like at this stage, Mr. Chairman, to • 11 reserve the right to reply to that statement • THE CHAIRMAN: Do you, as I understand it, wish this to be on the minutes of the meeting? MR. SHENOY: I wish it to be recorded, Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN: The statement you made? MR. SHENOY: Yes, sir. THE CHAIRMAN: Even if the South African Government wishes to respond to it? MR. HOPPENOT: Mr. Chairman, before this Board takes any action or decision on the advisability of introducing a purely political angle in the loan discussion, on the one hand, and on the other hand on the right of a government to be introduced in the discussion in the Board, I would very much like to have legal advice on the conformity of such actions with our Articles and By-laws. THE CHAIRMAN: We have asked the Legal Department. I MR. SOMMERS: I don•t quite understand the question. I thought the problem under discussion was the question as to how the political situation in South Africa affects the repayment prospects of this loan. If that were the discussion it would seem to me it is a relevant factor for the Board to II take into consideration. !j MR .. HOOKER: It certainly seems to me a director has a II  I I 22 :I STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL i right to make a statement if he chooses to do so. I don•t 'I think anybody is questioning the right of a director to have I his statement recorded in the minutes • • THE CHAIRMAN: Is the question you are asking, Mr. Hoppenot, that if a director in making a statement to the Board makes a statement which is construed by the director representing the country in question as reflecting on that country, no matter what the reflection may be, whether or not a representative of that country then has the right to be heard? Is that what you want to know? My understanding is that he has that right. MR. SOMMERS: I think that a member has a right to be present if the member has not an appointed director, and if the matter particularly affecting the member is under con- · sideration no final action can be taken until he has had an opportunity to be heard. I wouldntt interpret that as meaning any remark made about this table in Pegard to a particular member would give rise to a right to the member to come and I reply, although the Board could always permit him to do so if it wished. We have never considered that a loan proposal, although it does certainly affect the member, has entitled the member to come here and defend his position in regard to the loan. We have never had a request for it either, I may say. MR. BURY: I wouldntt say South Africa would wish to make  l 23 I STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL any reply. They may feel it is not the forum or time or place,I and it is quite a mistake to introduce any political ~onsidera- tion to this Board. This statement, of course, is subsequent • lto 1 the loan having been carried. It does not affect the loan. 1 The statement was made subsequently but as a separate issue. !When it is raised in this way, I will ask that I reserve my position. I do not suggest necessarily that they will wish to reply, but when an attack is made upon a government directly in this forum it must be informed of it and be given some 1 opportunity to reply if it sees fit. I do not say they will see fit to make any reply at all. MR. SOMMERS: The only question I was raising was whether a remark of this kind automatically entitled the member to be present at a meeting. MR. HOOKER: There is no quest~ion about a reply if they ~ so desire through their director who represents them. I may I be wrong, but it seems to me there is no question that if South A.f'rica wishes to reply through their director at this Board they can reply at a subsequent meeting or at this meeting. MR. SHENOY: I don1 t want to be misunderstood in any way, Mr. Chairman. I thought this loan was passed with the abstentions we have recorded. I was only stating the reasons which induced us to abstain in this loan proposal. We have no intention of attacking -- I dontt know if that was the word  i' I.I ~ 24 STRICTLY I CONFIDENTIAL 1! used -- any member government of this Banlc, but we felt !I i concerned that the interracial tension in this country might :. " influence the creditworthiness of the country in the matter jj • I' !I of the repayment of this loan. Our fear is that it may be il there in the course of the period of this loan, and that is !j II why we feel that we cannot support this loan, and so we 11 abstain. The consideration is not political; the considerat10J Ii II is purely economic. Unfortunately, the economic conditions 11 1l to which I referred have a poll ti cal origin, but that is Ii i! probably inevitable. But the stress is purely on economic I! ii considerations. I i i THE CHAIRMAN: Would you be willing to make your second lj II statement your final statement and disregard your first II statement? ! MR. SHENOY: Mr. Chairman, in my first statement I do I I not know if I have conveyed the correct impression, which I am II clarifying in my second statement. THE CHAIRMAN: Then if your second statement is satis- I factory, I think it might be satisfactory to Mr. Bury. Is that correct? MR. 1:3URY: Certainly more satisfactory. THE CHAIRMAN: As you explained it, I think it might be very satisfactory that way. MR. SHENOY: That is my position, Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN: Is that agreeable to you?  25 STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL MR. BURY: It is difficult, of course, Mr. Chairman, without seeing these things reduced to writing. MR. SHENOY: I dontt refuse to see any of my colleagues, Mr. Chairman. {Laughter) SIR EDMUND HALL-PATCH: Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that, the loan having been approved, the Board take notice of the statement made, in whatever form it is finally decided it shall be made, and that the matter rest there unless the Government of South Africa feels it is desirable from their point of view to make a counterstatement. For rrry part, I ' II would deplore the injection into a meeting of this description 11 I of political considerations -- purely political considerations This is an economic body. It can only function efficiently if it confines itself to its job, which is an economic job. I say that I was very relieved to hear my Indian colleague make the second part of his statement, that his concern was from an economic point of view and that concern was confined to that particular thing, the economic concern as to whether I the loan would be repaid. THE CHAIRMAN: I think that is a perfectly reasonable I and proper statement. SIR EDMUND HALL-PATCH: And I would hope it would stop there. THE CHAIRMAN: I think that we can appoint a committee of I two to work this out. 11  l STRICT1~ CONFIDENTIAL 26 MR. BORY: I think we have to be concerned, Mr. Shenoy i l 1 and myself, with the record. Mr. Shenoy agrees with that. I· ! lwt I MR. SHENOY: I wouldAlike to make it an official I )C I i i committee, Mr. Chairman. I certainly cannot refuse any of my I I I colleagues who want to discuss any of these issues that have ~ arisen in this Board, but I shouldl~ike it to be given the color of a committee to look into the question. THE CHAIRMAN: This is just informal. I will take back 11 the word committee. 11 MR. BURY: I think, Mr. Shenoy, not as a formal committee but just informally we should each have a look at the record. THE CHAIRMAN: I would like to suggest, if you could, tha you talk about it with the Secretary and work the thing out. SIR EDMUND HALL-PATCH: The right of the South African Government to make a counterstatement being reserved, if. they wish. THE CHAIRMAN: THE CHAIRMAN: That would depend on Mr. Bury. It is proposed to sign the South African I loans tomorrow morning at 10 o•clock.