Novi list, 3. kolovoza 2000. godine
Razgovor: veleposlanik Bernard Poncet, voditelj Misije OESS-a u Hrvatskoj
Hrvatska daleko od ispunjenja preuzetih obveza U Velikoj Popini nema struje iako postoji donator, konkretno USAID koji bi financirao popravak elektricne mreže u mjestu, medutim lokalne vlasti ne žele suradivati
Razgovarao: Stojan Obradovic
Intenzivna prisutnost misije OESS-a u Hrvatskoj, vidljiva proteklih dana i u posjetima šefa misije Bernarda Ponceta vukovarskom, osjeckom, kninskom podrucju i Lici, povod su da s predstavnikom OESS-a razgovaramo o poslu koji misija obavlja u Hrvatskoj, kao i njegovim pogledima na aktualnu situaciju u Hrvatskoj kroz prizmu ciljeva misije. S veleposlanikom Poncetom razgovarali smo u Koordinacijskom centru OESS-a u Kninu.
Nakon politickih promjena u sijecnju 2000. ocekivalo se da ce to biti i zadnja godina OESS- ove Misije u Hrvatskoj. No Misija OESS-a je ostala, što su razlozi produženja misije?
Mislim da oko tog problema postoji odredeno nerazumijevanje. Naš zadatak nije da ocjenjujemo jesu li u vladi dobri ili loši "momci", niti da ocjenjujemo poteze Vlade. Mi samo provodimo mandat ciji je sadržaj prihvatila i Hrvatska. Hrvatska je preuzela odredene medunarodne obveze, u prvom redu one koje se odnose na povratak izbjeglica, povrat njihove imovine, zaštitu manjina. Prema onome što mi vidimo na terenu, Hrvatska je još daleko od izvršenja preuzetih obveza kada je u pitanju povratak. Odnosno, uvjeti za normalan povratak izbjeglica nisu još ostvareni. Ta cinjenica vec dovoljno objašnjava razloge našega daljnjeg ostanka u Hrvatskoj.
U nekim mjestima zakon se uopce ne poštuje Možete li preciznije objasniti po cemu je to Hrvatska još daleko od preuzetih medunarodnih obaveza kada je u pitanju povratak?
Ne bih ulazio u preveliko detaljiziranje, ali imao sam priliku posjetiti podrucja kao što je npr. podrucje Gracaca gdje povratnici žive u neprihvatljivim uvjetima. Volio bih da vidite kakva je situacija u Velikoj Popini kod Gracaca ili npr. u Raškovicima kod Knina. Možda toga niste svjesni, ali u nekim mjestima zakon se uopce ne poštiva. U Raškovicima imate slucaj osobe kojoj je poslije akcije "Oluja" bilo ponudeno da uzme 56 tudih parcela koje su pripadale 32-ojici vlasnika. Vecina tih vlasnika se vratila vec prije nekoliko godina, ali nikako ne mogu dobiti svoje vlasništvo natrag. Dakle 32 obitelji lišene su svojih prava i mogucih uvjeta egzistencije kako bi profitirala jedna osoba ili obitelj koja na to nema pravo. Ovaj slucaj nije nepoznat vlasti ali nažalost, koliko ja znam, ništa se ne poduzima. U Velikoj Popini nema struje iako postoji donator, konkretno USAID koji bi financirao popravak elektricne mreže u mjestu, medutim lokalne vlasti ne žele suradivati. Ili da vam kažem još jedan podatak. Na putu izmedu Udbine i Knina, kao što znate, ima mnoštvo restorana uz cestu, ali koliko mi znamo vecina je nedostupna zakonskim vlasnicima, a u nekima se radi i o problemu dvostrukog ili višestrukog zauzimanja objekata. 1 Tko za takve probleme snosi odgovornost, lokalne ili centralne vlasti? Naime , stjece se dojam da oni cesto pokušavaju jedni drugima prebaciti lopticu odgovornosti?
Da, na žalost mnogo je ping-ponga. Ne možemo ici od slucaja do slucaja kako bi utvrdili cija je gdje odgovornost, ali je cinjenica da se izbjegava preuzeti odgovornost za probleme na svim razinama vlasti. To je sramotno i stvara vrlo lošu sliku o Hrvatskoj. Mi posebno inzistiramo na rješavanju dvostrukog ili višestrukog zauzimanja stambenih objekata jer za to ne trebaju novcana sredstva, a rješavaju se mnogi problemi.
Predsjednik Srpskoga narodnog vijeca Milorad Pupovac tvrdi kako samo u Šibensko- kninskoj županiji ima 30 do 50 posto slucajeva zauzete imovine koja se ne koristi, te bi se njezin povrat mogao brzo riješiti?
U principu se slažemo s tim.
Svjesni problema bosanskih Hrvata
Nedavno je Misija OESS-a bila predmet oštrih napada udruga bosanskih Hrvata koji su se naselili u Hrvatskoj. Oni isticu kako u svojoj pomoci i brizi favorizirate srpske povratnike, a ignorirate probleme bosanskih Hrvata?
Takvi napadi i formulacije cesto su se culi od pocetka naše Misije u Hrvatskoj. Pokušava se manipulirati širenjem laži. Da te optužbe nisu tocne potvrduju i naši dobri odnosi sa Zajednicom udruga naseljenika Hrvatske. Naprotiv, mi smo vrlo svjesni problema s kojima se suocavaju bosanski Hrvati i svatko dobronamjeran to lako može shvatiti i vidjeti. Zato zaista mislim da je svaka daljnja polemika oko toga suvišna.
Koliki je po vašim saznanjima stvarni interes Srba za povratak u Hrvatsku, a koliki je interes Hrvata iz BiH koji su smještaj našli u Hrvatskoj da se vrate u BiH?
Jedno nedavno istraživanje pokazalo je da se oko 60 posto izbjeglih Srba iz Hrvatske koji sada žive u BiH ili Jugoslaviji ne želi vratiti u Hrvatsku pod sadašnjim uvjetima povratka. Mnogi problemi i prepreke onemogucuju im da imaju stvarnu slobodu izbora hoce li se vratiti ili ne. Kada se otklone svi administrativni problemi povratka i kada uvjeti povratka budu transparentni onda cemo tek moci reci da povratnici imaju mogucnost slobodno odluciti hoce li se ili ne vratiti, te cemo tada moci vidjeti koliki je stvarni intres za povratak.
Što se tice bosanskih Hrvata koji su sada u Hrvatskoj, tocno je da je minimalan broj njih zaintresiran za povratak u BiH. Njihov eventualni povratak u BiH povezan je s gotovo identicnim problemima kao i povratak Srba u Hrvatsku. Uz jedan izuzetak da pri povrataku u BiH oni mogu tražiti povratak svog stanarskog prava dok se u Hrvatskoj na rješavanje ovog problema još ceka.
Stranacka pripadnost nije presudna
Jeste li razjasnili probleme s hrvatskom Vladom nakon vašega zadnjeg izvještaja i Vladinih ocjena da je dijelom taj izvještaj izraz neprihvatljivih politickih pritisaka na Hrvatsku?
2 Mi smo u stalnim formalnim ili neformalnim kontaktima prilikom kojih rješavamo i eventualne nesporazume. Istina je da naš zadnji izvještaj nije naišao na dobrodošlicu u Vladi. Ali treba reci da je teško prihvatiti ocjenu kako se radi o nekom pritisku OESS-a. Ti pritisci dolaze upravo iz aspiracije vaše Vlade za prihvacanjem europskih demokratskih standarda i bržim ukljucivanjem u euroatlantske integracije.
Kada je u pitanju povratak, mnogo se ocekivalo i od lokalnih izbora, odnosno promjene vlasti na lokalnim razinama. Kako u tom pogledu ocjenjujete rezultate lokalnih izbora?
Osobno sam vrlo pragmatican i mislim da ne treba dogmatski gledati na to tko je došao ili ostao na vlasti na lokalnim izborima. Moramo vidjeti kakve ce akcije uslijediti od pojedinih lokalnih vlasti, što ce netko poduzeti. I u tom pogledu naše iskustvo pokazuje da nije uvijek presudna formalna politicka orjentacija i stranacka struktura lokalnih vlasti, vec razumijevanje problema i spremnost da nešto ucine ljudi koji tu vlast obnašaju.
OESS daje preporuke, vlasti nalaze rješenja
Nedavno ste prilikom posjete vukovarskom i osijeckom podrucju izrazili nezadovoljstvo obnovom srpskih kuca, te najavili da ce OESS to u buducnosti promjeniti. Što namjeravate poduzeti?
Dio moje izjave u vezi obnove srpskih kuca je pogrešno shvacen. Naime, ja jesam izrazio nezadovoljstvo tempom obnove srpskih kuca, ali nisam rekao da ce u buducnosti OESS garantirati tu obnovu kao što su prenijeli neki mediji. Treba biti jasno da smo mi spremni pružiti pomoc i dati preporuke, ali da je na vlastima da mijenjaju situaciju i pronalaze rješenja. Ono za što se OESS zalaže jest nediskriminatorski pristup u obnovi i smatramo da nitko ne bi trebao imati poseban tretman, vec da bi uvjeti obnove trebali biti jednaki za sve. A to do sada nije bio slucaj, i to ne samo na vukovarskom podrucju, vec i u drugim dijelovima Hrvatske.
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NOVI LIST, 3 August 2001
INTERVIEW: AMBASSADOR BERNARD PONCET, HEAD OF THE OSCE MISSION TO CROATIA
CROATIA FAR AWAY FROM FULFILLING THE UNDERTAKEN OBLIGATIONS There is no electricity in Velika Popina, although there is a donor, concretely USAID, which would finance the repair of the power-supply network in the village, but the local authorities do not want to co-operate
By Stojan Obradovic
Intensive presence of the OSCE Mission to Croatia, also visible in the last days by the visits of the Head of the Mission, Bernard Poncet, to Vukovar, Osijek, Knin areas and to Lika, is a cause for discussion with the OSCE representative about the job the Mission performs in Croatia, as well as about his views on the current situation in Croatia through the prism of the Mission goals. We spoke with the ambassador Poncet in the OSCE Co- ordination Center in Knin.
After the political changes in January 2000, one expected that it would also be the last year of the OSCE Mission to Croatia. However, the OSCE Mission remained, what are the reasons for the extention of the Mission?
- I believe that there is a certain lack of understanding with regard to that problem. Our task is not to assess whether the Government consists of good or bad “guys” in, nor to assess the moves of the Government. We are only implementing the mandate, the content of which was also accepted by Croatia. Croatia undertook certain international commitments, first of all those relating to the return of refugees, repossession of their property, protection of minorities. According to what we see in the field, Croatia is still far from fulfilling the undertaken commitments when the return is concerned. In other words, the conditions for the normal return of refugees have still not been accomplished. This fact already sufficiently explains the reasons for our further stay in Croatia.
In some places the law is not respected, at all
Can you explain more precisely how is Croatia still far from the undertaken international commitments when the return is concerned?
- I would not go into great detail, but I had an opportunity to visit areas such as, for example, the area of Gracac, where returnees are living in unacceptable conditions. I would like you to see the situation in Velika Popina near Gracac, or, for example, in Raskovici near Knin. Maybe you are not aware of it, but in some places, the law is not respected, at all. In Raskovici, you have a case of a person who was offered, after the “Storm” operation, to take 56 plots of other people, which belonged to 32 owners. The
1 majority of those owners already returned several years ago, but they have not at all been able to repossess their property. Therefore, 32 families have been deprived of their rights and possible conditions for existence, so that one person or family can profit, which does not have the right to that. This case is not unknown to the authorities, but, unfortunately, as far as I am aware, nothing has been done. There is no electricity in Velika Popina, although there is a donor, precisely USAID, which would finance the repair of the electric supply in the settlement, however, the local authorities do not wish to co-operate. Or, should I mention to you one more piece of information. On the route between Udbina and Knin, as you know, there are numerous restaurants along the road, but, according to our information, the majority is inaccessible to the legal owners, and in some cases there is a problem of double or multiple occupancy of facilities.
Who is responsible for such problems, the local or the central authorities? Namely, one gets the impression that they are often trying to pass the ball of responsibility to one another?
- Yes, unfortunately there is a lot of ping-pong. We cannot go from case to case in order to determine who is responsible and where, but the fact remains that there is avoidance of responsibility for the problems at all levels of authority. This is a shameful thing and it creates a very bad picture about Croatia. We especially insist on the resolution of dual or multiple occupancy of the housing facilities, since no financial means are required for that and many problems are being resolved.
President of the Serb National Council, Milorad Pupovac, claims that only in the Sibenik-Knin County there is 30 to 50 per cent of occupied property cases which is not being used, and therefore its repossession could be resolved quickly?
- In principle, we agree with that.
Aware of the problems of Bosnian Croats Recently, the OSCE Mission was a target of serious attacks by the associations of Bosnian Croats who have settled in Croatia. They are emphasising that, by providing assistance and care, you display favouritism towards Serb returnees and ignore the problems of Bosnian Croats?
- Such attacks and formulations were often heard since the beginning of our Mission to Croatia. There is an attempt to manipulate by spreading lies. Our good relations with the Union of Associations of Settlers in Croatia confirm that these accusations are false. On the contrary, we are very well aware of the problems Bosnian Croats are faced with and every person with good intentions can easily understand and see that. Therefore, I am really of the opinion that every further polemics about that is excessive.
How large is, according to your knowledge, the actual interest of Serbs in the return to Croatia, and how large is the interest of Croats from BIH, who have found their accommodation in Croatia, to return to BIH?
2 - A recent research showed that around 60 per cent of Serb refugees form Croatia who are now living in BIH or Yugoslavia, do not whish to return to Croatia under the current return conditions. Many problems and obstacles are preventing them from having the actual freedom of choice whether they will return or not. When all the administrative problems for the return have been removed, and when the conditions for the return have been made transparent, only then will we be able to say that the returnees have the possibility to freely decide whether or not to return, and then we will be able to see how big is the actual interest in the return.
As far as the Bosnian Croats, who are currently in Croatia, are concerned, it is true that a minimal number of them is interested in the return to BIH. Their possible return to BIH is linked with almost identical problems as the return of Serbs to Croatia. With an exception that upon their return they are able to request the return of their occupancy right while the resolution of this problem in Croatia is still awaiting.
Membership in a party is not a decisive point
Have you clarified the problems with the Croatian Government after your last report and the Government’s estimations that this report was partially an expression of unacceptable political pressures on Croatia?
- We are in constant contacts, formal or informal, during which we are resolving also the possible misunderstandings. It is true that our last report was not welcomed by the Government. But one should say that it is difficult to accept the estimation that it is some sort of pressure by OSCE. These pressures are coming exactly from the aspirations of your Government to accept European democratic standards and faster inclusion into Euro-Atlantic integration.
On the subject of return, a lot was expected from the local elections, in other words from the change of authorities at the local levels. How do you, in that regard, assess the results of the local elections?
- Personally, I am very pragmatic and I think one should not observe in a dogmatic manner who came or remained in power at the local elections. We have to see what type of actions will follow by individual local authorities, what will be undertaken by who. Even with regard to that, our experience also shows that formal political orientation and party structure of local authorities are not always crucial, but the understanding of problems and the willingness of the people who participate in the authority to do something.
3 OSCE is giving recommendations, authorities are finding solutions
Recently, during your visit to Vukovar and Osijek area, you expressed your dissatisfaction with the reconstruction of Serb houses, and announced that OSCE will change that in the future. What do you intend to do?
- A part of my statement in relation the reconstruction of Serb houses has been misunderstood. Namely, I did express dissatisfaction with the pace of reconstruction of Serb houses, but I did not say that OSCE would guarantee the reconstruction in the future as it was broadcast by some media. It should be clear that we are willing to offer assistance and give recommendations, but it is up to the authorities to change the situation and find solutions. What OSCE stands for, is the non-discriminatory approach in the reconstruction and we are of the opinion that no-one should enjoy special treatment, but the conditions for the reconstruction should be equal for all. And this has not been the case until now, and not only in Vukovar area, but also in other parts of Croatia.
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