RAZGOVOR: BERNARD PONCET, VODITELJ MISIJE OESS-a U LIJEPOJ NAŠOJ:
U Hrvatskoj ljudska prava još u "ilegali" O ilegalnom, nezakonitom korištenju tude imovine na podrucjima posebne državne skrbi svi znaju, a posljedice benevolentnog ponašanja vlasti prema tom problemu su da neki ljudi, vaši gradani, žive kao životinje
Piše: Davorka BLAŽEVIC
Generalno gledajuci kakva je danas razina poštovanja ljudskih prava u Hrvatskoj osobito u odnosu na ranije godine? Je li bolja ili eventualno lošija, odnosno manje dobra negoli ste ocekivali?
Svakako ne bih rekao da je situacija na tom planu lošija nego prije. Napredak je postignut u razini demokracije, individualnih sloboda i medija, no situacija postaje kompliciranija i složenija cim se dotaknemo problema povratka i podrucja zahvacenih ratom. Obilaskom podruc ja posebne državne skrbi uvjerio sam se da postoji prilican manjak poštovanja ljudskih prava i zakona. O ilegalnom, nezakonitom korištenju tude imovine na ovim podrucjima svi znaju, a posljedice benevolentnog ponašanja vlasti prema tom problemu su da neki ljudi, vaši gradani, žive kao životinje.
Bez struje, vode...
I to je svakako zabrinjavajuca situacija, a po Hrvatsku i vrlo delikatna, no na žalost, cini se da nitko ne želi preuzeti odgovornost za donošenje konkretnih odluka kojima bi se dokinula te nenormalna situacija koja traje vec godinama, i ocito je da ona ne zavisi o rezultatima izbora, i u tome je nevolja. Bio sam ovdje i prije dvije godine, sada sam ponovno, i moram reci da sam razocaran saznanjem da nema dovoljno interesa da se ti problemi rješavaju.
Kazali ste da ima situacija gdje ljudi žive kao životinje . Mislite, svakako, na srpske povratnike? Imate li konkretne primjere za to?
Ako mi želite praviti društvo u obilasku na koji se upravo spremam, vidjet cete svojim ocima i moj vam komentar nece trebati. Uvjerite se sami.
Ipak Vas molim da precizirate gdje ste takve slucajeve vidjeli i o cemu se radi?
Ovih sam dana bio u mjestima koja mogu biti vrlo znakoviti primjeri u tom smislu. Jedno od njih je selo Velika Popina kod Gracaca gdje sam bio svjedok u kakvim uvjetima ti ljudi žive vec nekoliko godina, bez struje, telefona, hrane... mahom su to stari ljudi, a jedan od njih ima cak 92 godine i njegova kci dolazi svaki tjedan iz Zagreba i donosi mu hranu. Imate i slucaj s gospodom iz Subotice, zvanom Madarica, koja je u Knin došla 1996. g. i zauzela 56 parcela tude zemlje koje pripadaju 32-ma obiteljima izbjeglica ili povratnika srpske nacionalnosti. Za mene je to skandalozno i, medu nama receno, da sam Hrvat, sramio bih se zbog toga. No, ta se situacija nastavlja jer nitko ne želi preuzeti odgovornost za rješavanje takvih slucajeva.
1 Spomenuli ste primjer Velike Popine kao ekstreman. Koliko ljudi tamo živi i zbog cega po Vašem saznanju nemaju struju?
U selu živi 70 osoba uglavnom srpske nacionalnosti. Selo je nekad imalo struju, a postoji i mreža, ali nisu prikljuceni u sustav HEP-a koji nije zainteresiran za takvu investiciju i tvrdi da za nju nema novca. Ako ima za druga sela, zašto ne bi imao i za ovo?
Samo savjetnici
Informirate li hrvatsku Vladu nakon svojih obilazaka o stanju koje zateknete na terenu i primjerima koji Vas, kako kažete, skandaliziraju?
Da, naravno. Sjecam se da smo Vladi svojedobno uputili i listu s 88 slucajeva višestrukog nelegalnog korištenja tudeg vlasništva, prije svega kuca i stanova. Lista je provjerena, riješeno je možda 15 posto primjera i ocijenjeno je da neki navodno ne stoje. No, mi i to prihvacamo, jer ne mislimo da smo nepogrešivi. U svakom slucaju upozoravamo redovito Vladu na urgentne pa i skandalozne slucajeve, ali više od toga ne možemo uciniti jer mi smo ovdje samo da savjetujemo i asistiramo, a stvar je vlasti da konacno preuzme odgovornost za ono što se dogada.
Nakon nedavnih lokalnih izbora u nekim opcinama na podrucju posebne državne skrbi srpske stranke znacajno participiraju u vlasti, a negdje je i vecinski obnašaju. Ocekujete li da ce oni u tim sredinama postici bolje rezutlate u procesu povratka ljudi i imovine?
Da, ocekujem nešto više od njih, ali je isto tako sigurno da ce i te nove lokalne vlasti naici na prepreke. U svakom slucaju nece se moci reci da stambene komisije na tom podrucju nemaju problema, ali ih makar nece moci ignorirati i bit ce lakše identificirati tko su ljudi koji taj proces opstruiraju.
Bili ste u Hrvatskoj i prije dvije godine, a u meduvremenu se vlast promijenila. Mislite li da je i nova nomenklatura zadržala kontinuitet stare politike u pogledu povratka?
Ne bih baš tako rekao, ali držim da bi se u svakom slucaju moglo uciniti više. Državna vlast pokazuje neodlucnost u hvatanju u koštac s pitanjima koja u javnosti nisu baš popularna.
Problem aktualne hrvatske vlasti je u tome što ima puno "nepopularnih pitanja" za rješavanje, a koja su se koncentrirala upravo s njezinim dolaskom za kormilo države.
Slažem se i mogu razumjeti da su njezini prioriteti razliciti od prioriteta medunarodne zajednice, ali onda ne trebate biti iznenadeni i mogucim posljedicama.
HDZ postao "mekši"
Mislite li na konkretne konzekvencije pred kojima bi se Hrvatska mogla skoro naci?
Ako ne bude konkretnih pozitivnih koraka na ovom planu, to ce svakako komplicirati hrvatske pregovaracke pozicije s Europskom unijom. Ne mislim ni na kakve konkretne posljedice koje bi eventualno bile vec u pripremi. Treba dodati da su sve clanice EU-a i NATO-a istodobno i clanice OEES-a, i kad OESS brani svoje stavove, brani i stajališta EU-a i NATO-a. 2 Imate li podatke o broju srpskih povratnika u Hrvatskoj? Koliko je evidentirano njihovih zahtjeva za povratom imovine i koliko ih je dosad riješeno?
Registrirano je nešto više od 80 tisuca povratnika, no to ne znaci da su se svi oni doista i vratili. Mnogi se ne mogu vratiti u svoje kuce pa borave kod rodaka i prijatelja, a neki se vracaju u SRJ ili Republiku Srpsku. Mi nismo toliko fokusirani na brojke, nego na stvaranje uvjeta za povratak. Svjesni smo da se svi ljudi nece vratiti jer su se vec snašli, organizirali svoj život, dobili posao bilo u SRJ, RS ili trecim zemljama.
Ali, oni koji se žele vratiti, moraju biti tretirani kao gradani Hrvatske u svim svojim pravima i ne smije ih se obeshrabrivati u povratku. Naravno, situacija u gradovima je bitno drukcija, i tu oni nemaju takvih problema.
Iako u smislu povratka imovine nije postignut osobit napredak, cini se da se ipak mora priznati kako se politicka klima bitno izmijenila. Slažete li se s tim?
Da, slažem se, napetost je znatano manja, a dijalog se lakše uspostavlja cak i s ljudima iz HDZ-a. Ima manje nacionalizma i sve više realizma. Situacija se politicki postupno mijenja i ljudi više gledaju u buducnost nego u prošlost.
Baka u kontejneru Pitanje povrata imovine, napose stanova, povratnicima srpske nacionalnosti, ocito se sporo rješava, dijelom i zbog problema zbrinjavanja doseljenih Hrvata iz BiH, ali i nedostatka novca.
Mi to razumijemo, ali u tome ima i zaista drasticnih primjera. Blizu Gline smo registrirali doista zanimljiv slucaj. Jedan srpski povratnik nije mogao uci u svoju kucu jer je ona u meduvremenu ponudena na korištenje doseljenom BiH Hrvatu. No, radi se o tome da spomenuti doseljenik vrlo rijetko boravi u selu, a i kada dode, obicno odsjedne kod roditelja koji imaju na raspolaganju drugu kucu, takoder vlasništvo gradanina srpske nacionalnosti, koju su dobili na korištenje.
Lani kad se negdje u studenomu vratio iz SRJ vlasnik sporne kuce, vidio je da nema nikoga u njoj, a, uzgred, bila je izlijepljena posterima lidera HSP-a Ante Ðapica, i odlucio je useliti. Medutim, odmah je prijavljen policiji i priveden. I znate kakav je epilog ove price? Vlasnik kuce je sada na sudu zato što je htio uci u svoje vlasništvo.
No, to još nije kraj. Ta povratnicka obitelj ima pet clanova, a s njima je još i baka. Cijela peteroclana obitelj trenutacno živi u staji, prakticno pored stoke, a baka je, necete mi vjerovati, smještena u kontejner za skupljanje mlijeka velicine cetiri kvadrata. I nitko od njih naravno nema ni struju. O tomu su informirane mnoge organizacije od HHO-a do Amnesty Internationala i prate taj slucaj.
3
Slobodna Dalmacija, 27 July 2001
Interview with Bernard Poncet, Head of the OSCE Mission to Our Country:
Human Rights in Croatia Are Still ‘In Hiding’ • Everyone is aware of the illegal, unlawful use of other persons’ property in the areas of special state concern, and the consequences of the benevolent attitude of the authorities towards that problem are that some people, your citizens, live like animals
By Davorka BLAZEVIC
Generally speaking, what is the level of respect of human rights in Croatia today, especially in relation to previous years? Is it better, or possibly worse, i.e. not as good as you had expected?
I would certainly not say that the situation with that regard is worse than before. Improvement has been achieved at the level of democracy, individual freedoms and the media, but the situation is becoming more complicated and complex as soon as we touch upon the problem of return and of the areas caught by the war. Having visited the areas of special state concern, I became convinced that there is a significant lack of respect for human rights and laws. Everyone is aware of the illegal, unlawful use of other persons’ property in those areas and the consequences of the benevolent attitude of the authorities towards that problem are that some people, your citizens, live like animals.
Without electricity, water…
And this is definitely a situation which causes concern and a very delicate one for Croatia, but, unfortunately, it looks like no one wants to assume responsibility for adopting concrete decisions which would put an end to the abnormal situation that has been going on for years, and it is obvious that it does not depend on the election results, and that is a problem. I was here two years ago, as well, I am here again now, and I must say that I am disappointed with the realisation that there is not enough interest to resolve these problems.
You stated that there are situations where people live like animals. You certainly have in mind Serb returnees? Do you have concrete examples therefor?
If you would like to accompany me for the tour that I am about to take, you will see it with your own eyes and you will not need my comment. See for yourself.
Still, I am asking you to be specific about where you saw such cases and what it is about? These days, I visited the places which could be very indicative examples in that sense. One of them is the village of Velika Popina, near Gracac, where I witnessed the conditions in which those people have been living for several years, without electricity, telephone, food…Those are mostly elderly people, and one of them is no less than 92 years old and his daughter is coming every week from Zagreb to bring him food.
There is also the case of a lady from Subotica, called Madjarica (the Hungarian lady), who came to Knin in 1996 and occupied 56 plots of other persons’ land which belong to 32 families of refugees or returnees of Serb ethnicity. For me, it is scandalous, and, speaking among us, if I were a Croat, I would be ashamed of that. However, this situation is still ongoing, because no one wants to assume responsibility for the resolution of such cases.
You mentioned the example of Velika Popina, as an extreme one. How many people are living there and why is it, according to your knowledge, that they do not have electricity?
There are 70 persons living in the village, mostly of Serb ethnicity. The village used to have electricity, there is even a power supply network, but they are not connected to the HEP system, which is not interested in such an investment and claims they do not have the funds for it. If they have the funds for other villages, why would they not have them for this one, as well?
Advisers only
Do you inform the Croatian Government after your tours about the situation you have found in the field and the examples that are, according to your words, scandalous?
Yes, of course. I remember that some time ago we forwarded to the Government a list with 88 cases of multiple illegal use of other persons’ property, first and foremost of houses and apartments. The list was verified, perhaps 15 percent of the examples have been resolved and it was estimated that some examples were allegedly unfounded. However, we accept even that, because we do not believe we are infallible. In any case, we are regularly warning the Government about urgent, even scandalous cases, but we cannot do more than that, because we are here only to advise and assist, and it is the matter of the authorities to finally assume responsibility for what is happening.
After the recent local elections, Serb parties are significantly participating in the authorities of some municipalities in the area of special state concern, and in some parts they even have the ruling majority. Do you expect that they will achieve better results in those communities in the process of return of people and property?
Yes, I do expect a bit more from them, but it is also certain that even those new local authorities will face obstacles. In any case, one will not be able to say that the Housing Commissions in that area have no problems, but, at least, they will not be able to ignore them and it will be easier to identify who are the people who are obstructing that process.
You were in Croatia two years ago, as well, and in the meantime the government has changed. Do you think the new nomenclature has also maintained the continuity of the old policy with regard to return?
I would not put it exactly like that, but I suppose that, in any case, more could have been done. The state authority shows indecisiveness to get to grips with the issues that are not exactly popular in the public.
The problem of the current Croatian authority is the fact that there are many ‘unpopular issues’ to be resolved, which got concentrated exactly at the time of their coming at the helm of the state.
I agree and I can understand that their priorities differ from the priorities of the international community, but then you should not be surprised by potential consequences.
HDZ has become ‘softer’
Are you referring to the concrete consequences Croatia might soon face?
If there are no concrete positive steps in this area, that will definitely complicate the Croatian negotiating positions with the European Union. I am not referring to any concrete consequences which could already be possibly under preparation. It should be added that all members of the EU and NATO are at the same time members of the OSCE, and when the OSCE defends its standpoints, it also defends the standpoints of the EU and NATO.
Do you have the data on the number of Serb returnees to Croatia? How many of their requests for repossession of property have been registered and how many have been resolved so far?
A little bit more than 80 thousand returnees have been registered, but that does not mean that all of them have actually returned. Many are not able to return to their houses, so they reside with their relatives and friends, and some are returning to the FRY or the Republic of Srpska. We are not as focused on the numbers, as we are on the creation of the conditions for return. We are aware that not all of the people will return, because they already managed to get by, they organised their lives, got a job, either in the FRY, RS or in the third countries.
However, those wishing to return must be treated as the citizens of Croatia in all of their rights and they must not be discouraged in the return. Of course, the situation in towns is significantly different, and they do not have such problems there. Although no particular progress has been achieved in the sense of repossession of property, it seems that one has to admit that the political climate has significantly changed, after all. Do you agree with this?
Yes, I agree, the tension has considerably decreased, and it is easier to establish dialogue, even with the people from HDZ. There is less nationalism and more realism. Politically, the situation is gradually changing and people are more focused on the future, than on the past.
Grandmother in a container
The issue of property repossession, especially apartments, to returnees of Serb ethnicity is evidently being resolved slowly, partially due to the problem of accommodation of the Croat settlers from B-H, but also due to the lack of money.
We understand that, but there are really drastic examples there, as well. Near Glina, we registered a really interesting case. One Serb returnee could not enter his house because it was in the meantime offered to a Croat settler from B-H for use. But, the stated settler very rarely resides in the village, and even when he does, he usually stays with his parents who have another house at their disposal, also the property of a citizen of Serb ethnicity, which they received for use.
Last year, sometime in November, when the owner of the disputed house returned from the FRY, he saw that there was nobody living there, and, by the way, it was covered with posters of the HSP leader Anto Djapic, and he decided to move in. However, he was immediately reported to the police and arrested. And you know what the epilogue of this story is? The owner of the house is being sued because he wanted to enter his own property.
However, that is still not the end. That returnee family has five members, and the grandmother is also with them. The entire five-member family is currently living in a barn, practically next to the cattle, and the grandmother is, you will not believe this, accommodated in a container for the collection of milk, the size of four square meters. And, of course, none of them have electricity. Many organisations have been informed about it, from the HHO to the Amnesty International, and they are monitoring the case.